An Interview with Sebastian Murdock - The Journalist who got Text Messages between Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones

The following is a transcript of an interview I conducted with Sebastian Murdock. Murdock is a journalist at the Huffington Post who recently published an exclusive article that revealed text messages between Alex Jones of InfoWars and Tucker Carlson of Fox News.

Here’s a link to the article if you haven’t read it already.

“Exclusive: Alex Jones Phone Dump Reveals Text Convos With Tucker Carlson”

The Interview

Jeske: Okay. Hey, Sebastian Murdock.

Murdock: I'm a reporter for HuffPost, and we're speaking today about a story I did revealing text messages that I obtained between Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson.

Jeske: I remember when I saw it light up on my phone, the alert lit up on my phone. And I didn't know that you wrote the article and I pounced on it. I was like, Oh, that's awesome. And then it's an exclusive, and I got even more excited. So how did you if you can't tell it, that's fine. How do you get an exclusive like this?

Murdock: Sure. And yeah, I can tell it. So it actually goes back to Alex Jones's first Sandy Hook trial, which took place in August in Austin, Texas. It was during the trial that attorney Mark Bankston, the plaintiffs lawyers, called Alex out on the stand and said, Did you know 12 days ago your attorneys turned over the entire contents of your phone and, you know, did not mark it as privileged? It was a pretty humiliating moment for Alex Jones. And, you know, the judge in this case did not agree to seal or have the records destroyed. So now, months later, Mark Bankston turned a portion of those text messages over to me. And what they show is that Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson are, you know, clearly close friends. And it kind of shows their burgeoning relationship and what it also shows to me is, you know, the danger of having a conspiratorial, you know, that the man who has harassed the parents of dead children for years potentially influencing or at the very least, you know, having a friendship with a juggernaut of the right wing media sphere - Tucker Carlson.

Jeske: When you got the exclusive, is it because you knew the lawyer and you just were there when it happened?

Murdock: Yeah, I mean, basically, I have been specifically reporting on Alex Jones's defamation cases for the last four years. So, you know, I, Mr. Bankston trusted me with the material and, you know, what can I say? I'm a good journalist and I think I got it.

Jeske: The article starts with Tucker Carlson. Who is he going to warn about COVID-19?

Murdock: Yeah. So at the start of in March 2020, Tucker Carlson does a surprising thing and he drives to Mar-a-Lago to warn President Trump to take the virus seriously. And then what's even more surprising is that that caught the attention of Alex Jones, who texted Tucker to essentially say thank you. And Infowars had actually written a story about it. The headline, is something to the effect of, ‘Tucker Carlson drives the Mar-a-Lago,’ and the subhead was ‘Fox News host Saves America.’ So even Infowars and this moment appear to be taking it seriously. And then within a couple of months, you know, when the president decided he didn't want to take the virus seriously, it appeared that both Tucker and Alex got in line. And what was interesting to you is that if you if you go back and try to find that Infowars article that said, you know, Tucker drove to Mar-a-Lago, they deleted it.

Jeske: Well, I know that was a big study when I was working on my capstone, which is like a thesis towards a big study on how Fox News handled COVID-19. And interestingly enough, at the start, Tucker was the one that was more, Hey, this is scary. And Hannity was the one that was don't worry about it. And then they flipped at some point.

Murdock: That's right. And even after Tucker went to Mar-a-Lago, he went on his Fox News program and he warned his audience. He told them to take it seriously. And then months later, you know, he is platforming two California doctors who are saying that COVID actually isn't that bad and we should reopen businesses, which, of course, we know to be not true. And those doctors, you know, they're not epidemiologists. They run urgent care clinics. You know, they were not in a position to to be making those sort of claims.

Jeske: I saw one of them, I'm pretty sure is the same guy in California, Urgent Care. He owned like his own little urgent care store and or office or clinic or whatever. And he was on it because I also surveyed what American News Network. It's amazing how he would just say, well, I had this one patient and this one patient, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that would be the whole survey. That entire study.

Murdock: They use they use anecdotes as scientific evidence. And, you know, that's just not how it works.

Jeske: He would literally go like, I have this one patient and I gave him, you know, I gave him Hydroxychloroquine and he got better, right? And I'm like, that's not how it works. So in some cases you only have half the text message conversations.

Murdock: Alex deleted his side of the conversation. I asked Alex about that. You know, he told me it was a lot of him saying, I don't remember. Which I do think is not a total lie. I think he probably does have have kind of a shitty memory.

Jeske: What would be your favorite.. What is like the craziest exchange that you that you noticed?

Murdock: Yeah I think you know, a lot of what Alex does is he is reaching out to Tucker almost every time. And and you can kind of tell that Tucker is maybe even a little annoyed at points. But it's still interesting to me that, you know, Alex Jones is sending Tucker Carlson, for instance, a video of an animated dragon and Alex Jones is doing a racist Chinese accent and then is sending this material to Tucker Carlson, who's then like responding positively back to it. And I think just the idea of, like Tucker Carlson is, is watching this Infowars content is actively engaging with it and that, you know, you almost think that he would be a little better than that. But of course, it's also not that surprising.

Jeske: The other thing that I thought was very crazy about the tone of these emails is that they do seem very chummy. Yeah. Like Two Bros..

Murdock: Well, so. Yeah. I mean, but what also was really surprising to me too, is that Alex Jones texted Tucker Carlson said, saying that he was worried about getting arrested and we know he was never arrested. And once I started digging into what was happening on those dates, what I realize is this was the time, the same time that Alex Jones was on his program, where he went on this incredible rant about how he's going to eat his neighbors and how he is going to cut them up and filet them. And then he wanted to talk to Tucker Carlson. And Alex confirmed to me that that is what the conversation was about. And I think what surprises me is that not only did Tucker take that phone call, is having a conversation where Alex is defending his comments about wanting to eat his neighbors. And then Tucker gets off the phone and thinks to himself, well, that's you know, that's almost reasonable to him. Right. Like he texted Alex back afterwards, saying, great to talk to you. And, you know, you would think anyone else would say, you know, maybe I don't actually want to hang out with this guy and be associated with him.

Jeske: Seems in your article that you were in direct contact with Alex Jones, were you? How is he as a person?

Murdock: Yeah, that's right. So I've had a couple of run ins with Alex. You know, obviously, he's he's not a big fan of mine. We we spoke on the phone for about 20 minutes. You know, he does a lot of ranting and I tried to keep as much of that out of the story as possible. Obviously, you don't just want to give this guy the microphone and let him say whatever he wants. But I think he he did say some things that I think put some of the text messages into their proper context. I will say about 15 minutes into our conversation, he he he told me, he said, you know, how do you know that these are even my text messages? And I had to say, well, Alex, because we've been talking about them for the last 15 minutes and you haven't denied it.

Jeske: Well, it's like what I found was so interesting is I haven't watched that much of his trials because decoding Fox News is very much a full time job. Yeah. But I have seen clips of it and it is it. It's like he goes into show mode and he thinks what he was on trial, thinks he's like on his show.

Murdock: Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. And actually, one of the more disgusting things he did in Austin trial when he was on the stand, he was coughing the entire time. He had this terrible cough and he just couldn't stop coughing. As soon as he got on the stand, he went outside the courthouse to talk to reporters and apparently was totally cured, you know, didn't didn't have to cough anymore. And it's so everything's got to be a sideshow, you know, in Connecticut. He encouraged his audience to put up Infowars stickers outside of the courthouse and his supporters did that. And this is in Connecticut where the shooting happened. And so, you know, it's it's a level of disrespect that is just beyond the pale. And it's also clear to me that Alex Jones has not learned his lesson. And I don't I don't think he ever will.

Jeske: It's interesting, too, that he tried to pull that on you during your conversation with him like 20 minutes. And he's like, Oh, wait, how do you know? These are my text messages.

Murdock: Right. Yeah. And he is, you know, I mean, he's he is a mess of a person. I don't know how else to put it.

Jeske: Tucker Carlson, I watch him all the time I don't watch an exclusively but I rotate my primetime shows. But he's the one that I find the most dangerous on Fox. Yeah. For a number of reasons. But he always whines when people won’t go on his show. He whines, “We asked them to come on this show but they said no.” But apparently when you reached out to the Tucker Carlson tonight staff, they just repeatedly ignored you. Correct?

Murdock: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I called Tucker. I texted him. I emailed him. I even asked Alex to to let Tucker know that I was trying to get in touch. And obviously, you know, it's within Tucker's right to not want to respond to me. That's that's totally fair. But but yeah, it does speak a lot to your point, which is that he wants to, you know, ship that anyone who doesn't come on his show is a coward. And yet he he wants to run away from stories like this.

Jeske: If you could talk to Tucker Carlson, what would you love to ask him or show him of your evidence, that kind of thing?

Murdock: Yeah, that's a good question. I, I did you know, I sent him an email with a pretty detailed list of questions. You know, one of the more surprising text messages that he sent to Alex, he said something to the effect of everyone who thought it was okay to deplatform Alex Jones will look like a fucking moron. And you know, I would have loved to have asked him about that because it really is, you know, he's drawing a line in the sand and he's clearly in in the camp with Jones and is defending him wholeheartedly. Right. And I think knowing more about that would would certainly have been helpful.

Jeske: How much do you think I get asked this a lot. And I would love to hear your opinion about it. How how much you think with the backwards and back and forth between Tucker Carlson and Alex Jones. Tucker influences Alex and Alex influences Tucker. What have you seen with that?

Murdock: I mean, I think I don't I you know, my concern is that whether or not Alex is directly influencing Tucker Carlson, what we are seeing is how in line they are with with identical conspiracies. And that to me is dangerous. I you know, in the past few years, it seems Tucker Carlson has really amped up conspiratorial rhetoric in general. And so we're getting to the point where the lines are so blurred, you know, where does it start and where is it? Where does it end?

Jeske: Tucker Carlson just had a story about Damar Hamlin's collapse and he immediately was like, we don't know. We don't know why he collapsed. We don't know.

Murdock: And it's like because he got hit. He was playing football and he got fucking hit by a helmet and into his chest.

Jeske: You can't say that to Tucker Carlson. He would just say he was immediately on that story, immediately saying that “We don’t know. It could be because of the vaccine.”

Murdock: How and how is that, you know, any different from what we hear on on Infowars, you know, I mean, it's really not Tucker. It just happens to be a little more straight laced, you know.

Jeske: When he's a little bit more careful and he'll say things without like he doesn't come he doesn't go into screaming rants. You know, he doesn’t scream and bellow and bang on his desk and stuff like that. He's a little bit more subtle.

Murdock: Yeah. He presents himself as being respectable despite having abhorrent and ridiculous ideas.

Jeske: Yeah, of course. And what kills me is that they're still pushing COVID-19 conspiracies on Fox News. Yeah, they would have let it go, but no, they're not letting it go. And they act as if now, if we were to go back in time, we should never shut a single school down. We should never shut any businesses down. We should have just gone along. Business as usual. And if you get sick. Oh, well, with it, you'll probably be okay. We. We know it was like a roll of the dice. I did find this one real small detail. Very funny. The COVID-19 toothpaste. What do you know about that? That Alex Jones is hawking?

Murdock: Yeah. So, I mean, so Alex Jones, he he makes, you know, the majority of his money through selling supplements and, you know, brain pills on his website. And and it's it's incredibly lucrative for him at the height of the coronavirus pandemic. Yeah. He was selling fake toothpaste that he was passing off as a coronavirus cure. And the Food and Drug Administration had to come and issue a warning. And they had to you know, they told him that he needed to stop. And and he did he never addressed it, obviously. But, you know, and that that sort of, um, you know, it just it's so deeply cynical and and and cruel even, right? I mean, people are dying and they're also desperate for for, you know, any anything that could possibly help. Alex Jones knows that. And he takes advantage of his own audience.

Jeske: I get I probably when I get interviewed, I get asked about Tucker Carlson more than anybody. And do you think he's like a true believer or if he's just a grifter?

Murdock: Tucker No, I think he is. He's absolutely a grifter. And, you know, I think the story kind of shows that, too, right? Where at at the beginning of the pandemic, he is warning the President and then a month later, he's over it, you know, and he's toeing the line of whatever conspiracy the President wants to talk about. And and, you know, going along with it, I think he you know, he's a deeply cynical person. I don't trust anyone who wore a bow tie into their mid-thirties, but it doesn't sit right with me.

Jeske: Have you seen the Crossfire episode with Tucker Carlson and Jon Stewart?

Murdock: Yes.

Jeske: He basically destroyed him. And apparently that was the last time he wore the bow ties. Yeah, wearing the bow ties after that show got canceled. And I will say to my listeners and readers, if you haven't seen the Jon Stewart Tucker Carlson feud is on Crossfire, it's worth seeing. It's amazing.

Murdock: Is a beautiful takedown.

Jeske: He absolutely destroys him. He’s reduced to a puddle. He's a puddle on the floor. By the time Jon Stewart is done with him and Tucker’s show got canceled right after that. It's very telling. It's interesting from my angle, what I see with Tucker all the time is he and this is why I in some ways, I think he's a grifter. In some ways, I think he's a true believer. And we the white supremacy situation, I feel like he's a true believer. Because he has far too many people that we would describe as extremist or even neo-Nazis and, you know, promote them or platform them in some way. We won't say what they actually are. He'll say, oh, this person has deplorable views or this person's views are bad, but yeah, he should still protect them. And then you know, I have to sit there on my computer and do research after the episode, go up to another neo-Nazi.

Murdock: He's he's absolutely pushing an agenda, doing fascist apologia, you know, but when I talk about him grifting, I mean, more of, you know, when he's on his show bitching about how the the green M&M is making him horny or whatever, you know, that, you know he does it, he doesn't actually care. But it's another thing to to stoke the flames of the culture war.

Jeske: No, I think it's interesting because I think some of the conspiracy theories that he promotes, he doesn't he doesn't really believe them. It's because he read it somewhere and he's like, oh, I can I can use this to whip up people and get them all worked up. But he did a show on a for a fox nation on animal autopsies. Like, I don't think that Tucker Carlson really believes that aliens are coming down and dissecting livestock. I don't believe that he cares or believes that. But I think he knows that it taps into his base and keeps them all worked up. So he'll go ahead and promote it and make money off of it, whatever kind of like the. Oh, and this I don't know if you know about this, but it's this is we're getting kind of B-roll stuff. But the “End of Men,” the crazy testicle tanning.

Murdock: Oh, yeah.

Jeske: Part of the film was shot at an Alex Jones property of some sort.

Murdock: Oh, is that right? I didn't.

Jeske: Yeah, the guy was working out like it like they he never revealed that in the documentary, but researchers immediately found that out. And they well, there's a lot of overlap with those two, just like you have to go through assistants to get Alex on the phone.

Murdock: No, I mean, he's you know, he's not that powerful of a man.

Jeske: So you could just like, call him.

Murdock: Yeah, I've got his phone number now, so I'll certainly start prank calling him.

Jeske: You have like recordings of this stuff, don't you?

Murdock: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Jeske: Oh, but he knows that, like, when you do an interview, you know, you're being recorded. It's just sort of a given.

Murdock: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeske: I'm kidding. I’m kidding of course but it would be funny to throw a party and be like, Guess what? I'm going to play.

Murdock: Put it on like a like a remix.

Jeske: You know, like why I got Alex Jones. Don't even understand. It would be that would be kind of funny like a party. I mean, I would. I’m joking of course, journalists don't do that, of course. It’s not ethical. I don’t know how you do it. My heart would be racing to call him. I don't think that that would be that would be that would be quite difficult for me because I'd just be like, “You're crazy.” I would just want to say, “You’re a horrible person,” but you can’t do that of course.

Murdock: Yeah, you got to keep it together. Um, and and, you know, I talked to him outside of the Austin trial. I have to send you video of this, but I spoke to him outside of the trial and all.

Jeske: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear that.

Murdock: And he he he accused me of of being the one who was on trial. And I had to remind him. No, Alex, you are on trial. You know, it's almost like talking to a child sometimes. He's sort of he's got turns of phrases that he just sort of says over and over again. Dinosaur media is one of them were comparing himself to Lex Luthor is another one and you know it's all it's like these bits that he has. He can't he can't get out of his head.

Jeske: Have you faced any backlash from Alex Jones? His people does. He mentioned you ever on camera?

Murdock: Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. After after my article, he he was yelling up a storm on Infowars. Owen Shroyer, that's Alex Jones's kind of sidekick who has his own program on Infowars. Owen Shroyer has done a segment on me because during the Connecticut trial, you know, I told you that people were putting up Infowars stickers outside of the courthouse while I tore him down. And so he got you know, he was mad about that. And yeah, I mean, we've definitely butted heads.

Jeske: So he actually is like segments like Sebastian Murdock! Does he actually say your name?

Murdock: I don't I don't I don't know about that. But he does you know, he does sort of.

Jeske: Have you had to face any of his crazy fans?

Murdock: Yeah. But mostly just online abuse and you know, that's that's just part of the job.

Jeske: Oh, yeah, I know. I know all about it. Yeah.

Murdock: So it's, it's it's not too bad. And obviously it is. I find the work very rewarding and any time I can make Alex Jones upset, you know, I'm happy with that.

Jeske: What do you think is going to happen to Alex Jones? Like what do you what do you think? I know he can't escape all of these settlements. There's no way.

Murdock: Yeah. I mean, he knows he's got, like, two to three years of appeals and the bankruptcy that he filed has kind of certain things into wack, but he is eventually, you know, the the law is coming for him. He is going to have to pay a pretty heavily you know, one thing that I that I saw over the course of of watching Infowars the past couple of weeks is he has a new ad now. In the ad he tells a story about how he went to a gas station. And the guy at the gas station said, Alex, I want to keep buying your products, but I don't want my money to go to the people who sued you. And Alex goes, Oh, well, that's absolutely fine because they're not getting a dime. And, you know, we've got two to three years of appeal. And so, you know, make sure to keep buying the supplements because all that money is going to me.

Jeske: Oh, my God, they could sue him just for that. Yeah. I mean, that's what's so amazing about him is like, as soon as he got off the stand, he started saying stuff that they could still continue to sue him for.

Murdock: Right? Yeah. I mean, he just doesn't care, you know? Yeah.

Jeske: He seems reckless the way he talks to the press. Like he's just constantly talking to the press, and you're like a nobody in their right mind if they're facing that kind of litigation would be.

Murdock: Hey, I don't mind.

Jeske: Do you do you have any Alex Jones have any more trials coming up?

Murdock: He does have a third Sandy Hook trial. That date is to be determined, but it will take place back in Austin again. So yeah, I will. I will definitely be there.

Jeske: Do you have to like fly to Austin, stay in a hotel and then spend your entire day In the courtroom?

Murdock: Yes.

Jeske: Yeah, well, people have no idea what journalists go through. They really. No, they it's it's funny. I get I don't know if you get this, they get like wacky tips that have nothing to do with my beat all the time. I think they're doing me a favor and I'm like, I got this great tip, and I'm like, If it's not about Fox News, I don't care. But you don't want to say that doesn't mean you want to be rude, you know, like, you've no idea how hard this actual job is. Sometimes. Like, I just have to go through hours and hours of Fox News and your tip about maybe you know, like the other day I got a tip about the proud boys. I just sent it to Andy Campbell. Andy Campbell, by the way, is a mutual friend of Sebastian Murdoch and myself.

Murdock: That's right.

Jeske: It's how we met. I know. I knew Sebastian Murdoch before this interview. I know. Shocking. You can't hear about it.

Murdock: We're both we're both cat parents.

Jeske: Yeah, we're.

Murdock: I've got my little pepperoni.

Jeske: And I have Odin and Thor. Any listener of the podcast would know about Odin and Thor because I mention them every week.

Jeske: So as promised, Sebastian gave me some clips of him interacting directly with Alex Jones. These are both on Twitter. This first one is Alex Jones outside of the courthouse in Austin. It's kind of a sunny day. He's got like a brown suit on. He sort of shuffles out and he is desperately smoking. That cigarette is the most important thing to this man's life.

He's just clinging to it like some type of life raft, just puffing away. And he's sort of surrounded by press. But you can't see the press. You can sort of hear them. And Sebastian just basically tried to talk to him.

Jones: So I'm almost done here. So you pretend to be a journalist and you want to look at people like me and say, you're the good guy.

Murdock: I think I think you're on trial, though, right. For not having.

Jones: The corporate media is on trial and so is the rigged judiciary here.

Murdock: But you literally today are on trial. Just to clarify.

Jones: No, you’re on trial. You’re on trial. You’re on trial.

Murdock: I’m not.

Jones: Failed Soros propped up corporate media.

Murdock: All right.

Jones: You are nothing but a pirate.

In the second clip. It’s the same setting outside of the Austin courthouse.

Jones: Look, whatever fantasyland you want to make up, go ahead and make it up. Do you know how discredited the Huffington Post is?

Murdock: Tell me about it.

Jones: I don’t care. I literally don’t care.

Murdock: O.K.

Jones: I’ll talk to local news or whatever but you guys are a joke.

Murdock: O.K. I’m just asking how you think Karpova did on the stand?

Jones: I think Daria is an awesome patriot.

Murdock: O.K.

Jones: Worth a hundred of you guys.